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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Roma haro about his experience with

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Wikipedia harassment so all I was trying

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to do was really just change the lead

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section even just giving him his proper

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credentials academically right Cambridge

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University refers to him as a biologist

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there's a there's so many scientific

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publications that referred him as a

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biologist well it's absurd he has dozens

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and dozens of scholarly peer review

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papers in scientific journals I think

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he's published in Nature if I remember

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correctly and take blind to from the

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wikipedia entry from 1967 to 1973 he was

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a biochemist and cell biologist at

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Cambridge University well what happened

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after that he stopped being a biochemist

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he stopped being a biologist it's just

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absurd it's like something from a Monty

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welcome to skeptic oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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i'm your host Alex Karras and on this

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episode of skeptic oh we're going to dig

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into a topic that I've touched on a

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couple of times in the last few months

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it has the do with the controversy on

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Wikipedia over the bio page of dr.

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Rupert Sheldrake and of course it's

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about the larger problem with Wikipedia

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and the strong bias that it shows in

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certain areas now our guests for the

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show Roma haro is someone who's been on

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the front lines of this battle and

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provides a very interesting perspective

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on exactly well I guess there's no other

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way of saying it how bad things really

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are so I thought before getting to this

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interview with Rome I would play a clip

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from dr. Rupert Sheldrake in an

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interview he gave to the BBC because I

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think he sums up the situation quite

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nicely and provides a little lead in to

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what's going on and then we'll get right

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to the interview here's that clip for

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many Wikipedia the collaborative online

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encyclopedia is the first place to go

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looking for someone or something but can

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you rely on it well not really says

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scientist Rupert Sheldrake he came in to

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explain Wikipedia is open to anyone to

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edit and it's a wonderful idea but

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because it's so widely used it makes it

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attractive to people with an agenda to

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push their own agenda by becoming

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editors and I drew attention to a group

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called guerilla skeptics on Wikipedia in

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a blog that I rationed summer a group of

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people who have a very strong agenda

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they want to prove that things like

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telepathy alternative and complementary

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medicine and so on a rubbish well they

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don't want to prove it they believe that

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and they want everyone else to believe

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it so I drew attention to their

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activities and a few days later the

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wikipedia page on me that was targeted

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by a group of skeptics now I can't prove

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that they're part of that organization

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because people operate anonymously and

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so what's happened to me since then is

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that the

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people as it were captured my biography

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which I've never edited myself that's

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not what you do on Wikipedia but they've

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now systematically gone through the

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biography quoting everything bad that

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anyone's ever said about me for the last

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30 years deleting anything good that

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anyone said about me and then rewriting

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like careers for example I was a fellow

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of Clare College Cambridge and a

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director of studies at Cambridge that's

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been changed to I worked for a while as

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a postdoc at Cambridge so basically a

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group of dedicated ideologically

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motivated people have not just my page I

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mean if it was just me I wouldn't be so

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worried it's a systematic attempt to

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distort hundreds of pages on Wikipedia

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because your research pursues the idea

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that mind is more than the physical that

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people have beliefs they might have

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something called soul there is telepathy

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for example which needs to be explored

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things are not purely material in the

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way that humans experience them and

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these people don't like that they think

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it should be materialism and that's it

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that's it they're committed materialists

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and materialism is of philosophy is the

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belief that the mind is nothing but the

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brain the activity of the brain so

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things like telepathy or alternative

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medicine are impossible there or even

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belief in God oh yes that most of the

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militant atheists I think that's really

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where the emotional impetus comes from

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from any of them they are kind of

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proselytizing atheists they think that

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phenomena like telepathy or impossible

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I'm a scientist and I think that we

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should investigate them I've done

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Studies on dogs that know when their

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owners are coming home which i think is

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telepathic in many cases but you see

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that for the from the point of view of

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the gorillas skeptics anyone who

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investigates these phenomena that they

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don't like with is doing pseudoscience

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if you change things back they as you

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say they've changed your biography so

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you change it back to what it was then

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what happens there's been a series of

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people who've gone into the edit the

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page who've think that this is wrong and

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they've tried to restore a balance if

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they change it back within seconds the

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skeptic types revert it is called

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reverse

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because they have a automatic alert if

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any change was made on the site there in

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immediately notified and then if someone

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changed it back again if someone reverts

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thinks three times in a day they can be

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banned for called an editing war they've

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got about five people banned so far so

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this is the problem and it's not

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confined to these skeptic groups there

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are other groups on different parts of

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Wikipedia who are editing it for their

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own ends at Earth well the oxford

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university internet research unit

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published a list recently of the top

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editing walls on wikipedia and the top

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10 sites weathers editing walls and

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contested editing concern climate change

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God Jesus Christ Muhammad and it

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homosexuality and they differ from

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country to country most people who use

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Wikipedia think it's sort of a fair and

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objective and in some cases it is I mean

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if you're dealing with on controversial

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subjects and I like the age of lincoln

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cathedral or something then it's

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probably very reliable but in anything

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whether there's a differing opinion

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there's a tremendous temptation for

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people to try and capture it and use it

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to promote their agenda so on my

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particular biography page the rupert

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sheldrake page on wikipedia a

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superficial person just looking in me up

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for the first time we get an extremely

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distorted view if they persisted they'd

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be able to correct the balance but many

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of them might not persist Rupert

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Sheldrake where we're going to talk

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about the reliability of Wikipedia and

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that's on the World Service facebook

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page quite a lot of people also

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commenting on Sheldrake's research

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itself we're actually going to take that

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up as an issue later at some time next

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week so with that as a background let's

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get right into the interview that I had

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today we welcome Rome baharo to skeptic

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Oh Rome is an entrepreneur and media

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consultant who during the fall of two

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thousand thirteen found himself right in

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the middle of the Wikipedia war over

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Rupert Sheldrake CIO page this is a

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topic I've touched down a little bit

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before and I'm really glad to welcome

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Rome here so we can kind of fill in some

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of the backstory here because it's

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really fascinating and it fits in with

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so many of the things we've talked about

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on this show Rome welcome to skeptic oh

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thanks for joining me oh thank you Alex

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thank you for having me on I really

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appreciate it so Rome I will have just

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played for folks dr. Sheldrake's recent

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interview on the BBC where he does a

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pretty good job of outlining the

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situation and the capturing as he calls

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it of his bio page can you tell folks

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how you became involved in this project

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how you first got interested and then

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made a little bit about what happened

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sure sure so I became involved I met

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Lewbert Sheldrake about one year

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previously up in Northern California he

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saw I you know I gave a TEDx talk he saw

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it and he just want to know if we could

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meet while he was in while he was in

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town he just wanted some advice on his

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social on his website and social media

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properties it's a very common question

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I'm asked I'm a consultant for social

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media so I met with him I gave him kind

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of like the usual spiel that I give to

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most people we met for about 30 minutes

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and and that was pretty much it i like

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nothing I'm assuming he was satisfied I

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mean nothing else kind of came of it and

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he wound up eat sending me an email kind

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of out of the blue in august of this

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year asking for my advice about his

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Wikipedia problem and at first I was a

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little a little skeptical I know a lot

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of people kind of look at wikipedia

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sometimes it's kind of like a vanity

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article or a way to kind of promote

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their ideas and I wasn't at first wasn't

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sure what he was asking and I personally

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kind of believe in Wikipedia I believe

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in the kind of like the neutral point of

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view that the encyclopédie has to take

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so at first I was a little uncomfortable

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but then he then he explained that

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they're with these editors that kind of

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went on to take over his page and they

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were bullying and people off of it and

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could I just take a look and just

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basically just give me some advice so I

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went to his article page and I was

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actually personally offended by what I

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saw when I did see a lot of the evidence

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of the bullying of what was happening

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there was a few editors on there one

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editor visakha kind of joined the site

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it looked like just to edit lewbert's

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page there were they were the comments

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the way they would attack other editors

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on the page I think there was like a

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number of editors who were actually kind

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of band away from the page and it to me

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it just seemed like something that i was

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i was just kind of disillusioned right

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that I was actually seeing this happen

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on Wikipedia and no one was doing

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anything about it all right let's back

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up for just a second and explain to

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folks who are not totally familiar with

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the inner workings of Wikipedia because

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we all know what Wikipedia is right it's

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online encyclopedia and uses the power

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of the group to edit these articles so

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for most people who don't who never have

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taken the time to be common editor or

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get involved with any editing they kind

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of think have this idea that the whole

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process just kind of works itself out in

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kind of a normal way like you would with

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a small group and really there's quite a

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complicated social structure that really

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is developed behind these Wikipedia

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pages so tell people a little bit about

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how it's supposed to work how you've

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seen it work in the past and then what

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surprised you when you went to shelters

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page because I think you tell a great

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story there you know you're experienced

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in social media and even as an

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experienced person who understands

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Wikipedia and has really been involved

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with some pretty sophisticated projects

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of whipping Wikipedia some you were

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surprised so I've kind of gone on not

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tell us how it's supposed to work and

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then what you found in shelters page

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well I listened to be honest I had my

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own idea about how it was supposed to

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work I actually previous to this I

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actually never went through you know the

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mediation process on Wikipedia before I

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folk about it right in my in my TED talk

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I actually used the Wikipedia article of

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Israelis and Palestinians finding a

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consensus where politicians couldn't so

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I had this this idea about it and of

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course I've you know read about it and

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kind of researched it but myself I

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actually never went through the process

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but how it's supposed to work I mean

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Wikipedia does have a very large often

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complex confusing sometimes even

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contradictory set of guidelines and how

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it's supposed to happen is there's a

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voice that Wikipedia is written in and

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it's the voice of neutrality and for me

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it's almost like how a journalist would

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write something like a like you know a

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proper journalist like from the New York

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Times or The Washington Post not an

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opinion article but like a reporter

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which is to simply you kind of remove

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yourself to the best of your ability

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personally from the information on the

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article and you simply state the facts

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not the story not the opinion but just

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the facts and on Wikipedia the

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guidelines kind of guide editors how to

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approach this now there's all these

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there's such a wide variety of different

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topics on wikipedia from politics

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religion philosophy potentially very

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kind of contentious articles with

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different ideologies that kind of guard

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them so Wikipedia does keep adding on

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new steps new rules right of how to

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approach all these instances and when

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you go into talk one the what makes

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Wikipedia very difficult is how

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discussion actually is formatted on

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Wikipedia it's not like a normal

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discussion forum that most people are

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used to it's not like a reddit for

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example it's not like most kind of BBS's

332
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so even just having a discussion or

333
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leaving a comment can be very confusing

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like the first time people can leave a

335
00:13:42,850 --> 00:13:40,970
comment and this actually happened to me

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when I went on the Sheldrake's plays

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00:13:46,660 --> 00:13:44,480
they can put their comments in the wrong

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area they might forget to put a

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00:13:52,239 --> 00:13:49,970
signature so the the format of it is

340
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just inherently confusing but the idea

341
00:13:57,999 --> 00:13:55,639
is that when you go on to edit an

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article you're you familiarize yourself

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00:14:01,600 --> 00:13:59,269
with the general guidelines of how

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Wikipedia operates and you kind of

345
00:14:04,660 --> 00:14:03,290
follow them to the best of your ability

346
00:14:06,710 --> 00:14:04,670
what's really interesting about

347
00:14:08,679 --> 00:14:06,720
Wikipedia is they have some very kind of

348
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forward-thinking rules and guidelines

349
00:14:14,119 --> 00:14:12,389
one of them is if you believe that you

350
00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:14,129
have to break one of these rules or

351
00:14:19,340 --> 00:14:16,620
break one of these guidelines to make

352
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the page better then break the rule but

353
00:14:22,340 --> 00:14:20,490
they also have a lot of very kind of

354
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restricted rules and what winds up

355
00:14:28,610 --> 00:14:24,810
happening is you have all these rules

356
00:14:30,740 --> 00:14:28,620
that editors when they do have an agenda

357
00:14:33,170 --> 00:14:30,750
they kind of gain right they kind of

358
00:14:35,300 --> 00:14:33,180
gain these circumstances rules or

359
00:14:37,249 --> 00:14:35,310
guidelines so they can kind of get their

360
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agenda on the page and that's where

361
00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:38,970
things can get very confusing and the

362
00:14:43,819 --> 00:14:41,610
principal way that they do that is by

363
00:14:46,730 --> 00:14:43,829
banning anyone who disagrees with them I

364
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mean in simple yes that's what happens

365
00:14:52,300 --> 00:14:49,259
you go through this protracted process

366
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of editing and then re-editing and

367
00:14:56,420 --> 00:14:54,779
controversy in this but at the end of

368
00:14:58,220 --> 00:14:56,430
the day within a very short period of

369
00:15:01,040 --> 00:14:58,230
time you get banned and that's what

370
00:15:03,110 --> 00:15:01,050
happened to you yes and that was it was

371
00:15:04,369 --> 00:15:03,120
it was such a disillusioning experience

372
00:15:06,230 --> 00:15:04,379
when it happened to me too because I

373
00:15:08,569 --> 00:15:06,240
mean I knew what I was walking into I

374
00:15:10,009 --> 00:15:08,579
mean I I knew that I I knew that there

375
00:15:12,499 --> 00:15:10,019
was editor Zhaan there that definitely

376
00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:12,509
had some kind of agenda I mean it was it

377
00:15:15,889 --> 00:15:14,250
was pretty clear so I was expecting to

378
00:15:17,990 --> 00:15:15,899
get you know challenge and things like

379
00:15:20,509 --> 00:15:18,000
that what happened to me is literally

380
00:15:22,879 --> 00:15:20,519
within the first two days that I was

381
00:15:25,100 --> 00:15:22,889
there they tried to get me banned twice

382
00:15:27,889 --> 00:15:25,110
you know when I first came on too i was

383
00:15:29,449 --> 00:15:27,899
i was just kind of sussing the situation

384
00:15:31,970 --> 00:15:29,459
now I'm just kind of orientating myself

385
00:15:33,740 --> 00:15:31,980
to the personalities and discussion you

386
00:15:35,150 --> 00:15:33,750
know to the process I didn't like jump

387
00:15:37,639 --> 00:15:35,160
in a hundred percent I jumped in like

388
00:15:40,220 --> 00:15:37,649
ten percent the beginning so i posted 1

389
00:15:43,280 --> 00:15:40,230
or 2 comments about my concerns and for

390
00:15:46,970 --> 00:15:43,290
I this one editor vizac immediately came

391
00:15:49,460 --> 00:15:46,980
to my page said I was warned me that I

392
00:15:52,519 --> 00:15:49,470
was personally attacking editors on the

393
00:15:55,429 --> 00:15:52,529
page and that could be cause for

394
00:15:59,600 --> 00:15:55,439
removing me from Wikipedia and then the

395
00:16:01,699 --> 00:15:59,610
second day bizzack how the Zac found all

396
00:16:04,490 --> 00:16:01,709
this I don't know but this aquent back

397
00:16:07,069 --> 00:16:04,500
like back to 2006 and the archives in

398
00:16:10,460 --> 00:16:07,079
Wikipedia and found links on internet

399
00:16:16,870 --> 00:16:10,470
archive of discussion activities that I

400
00:16:19,730 --> 00:16:16,880
participated in in 2003 2004 2005 and

401
00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:19,740
said that I was trolling

402
00:16:26,630 --> 00:16:23,010
back then and that therefore i'm

403
00:16:29,180 --> 00:16:26,640
trolling wikipedia now and posted my

404
00:16:31,550 --> 00:16:29,190
personal identity on the talk page on

405
00:16:33,710 --> 00:16:31,560
Rupert's page and on my own personal

406
00:16:35,210 --> 00:16:33,720
page in Wikipedia which that is just a

407
00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:35,220
completely that's just a complete

408
00:16:39,740 --> 00:16:37,770
violation of how Wikipedia works the

409
00:16:43,070 --> 00:16:39,750
guidelines in the principles so your

410
00:16:46,010 --> 00:16:43,080
anonymity was destroyed I mean this is

411
00:16:48,710 --> 00:16:46,020
clearly a case of cyberbullying of

412
00:16:50,810 --> 00:16:48,720
someone trying to use the internet and

413
00:16:52,580 --> 00:16:50,820
the power of social media to kind of

414
00:16:55,310 --> 00:16:52,590
attack someone and do them harm because

415
00:16:58,460 --> 00:16:55,320
you have the ability or you have the

416
00:17:00,350 --> 00:16:58,470
right to disclose or not disclose who

417
00:17:02,390 --> 00:17:00,360
you are you're an entrepreneur you're a

418
00:17:04,430 --> 00:17:02,400
business person involved in social media

419
00:17:06,440 --> 00:17:04,440
we can understand why you may or may not

420
00:17:08,300 --> 00:17:06,450
want to disclose that you know what I

421
00:17:10,430 --> 00:17:08,310
think though we need to add to this

422
00:17:12,110 --> 00:17:10,440
because people listening to this and

423
00:17:14,120 --> 00:17:12,120
they're trying to sort out you know it's

424
00:17:17,240 --> 00:17:14,130
a big debate it's a fight there's two

425
00:17:20,110 --> 00:17:17,250
sides to it no no no no no what we have

426
00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:20,120
to add to this room is a little bit of

427
00:17:26,570 --> 00:17:23,010
context let's go through some of the

428
00:17:28,730 --> 00:17:26,580
changes that we're so controversial to

429
00:17:31,370 --> 00:17:28,740
these folks who have captured again

430
00:17:34,880 --> 00:17:31,380
Rupert sheldrick Spade these folks are

431
00:17:37,250 --> 00:17:34,890
are very dogmatic skeptics it's really a

432
00:17:39,920 --> 00:17:37,260
cover for atheism and they're

433
00:17:42,230 --> 00:17:39,930
fundamentalist in that way but let's go

434
00:17:44,630 --> 00:17:42,240
through some of the changes that were so

435
00:17:48,350 --> 00:17:44,640
controversial to them and I'd start with

436
00:17:51,170 --> 00:17:48,360
the very first line in sheldrick page

437
00:17:53,090 --> 00:17:51,180
and you'd sent me an email on this just

438
00:17:56,150 --> 00:17:53,100
to the last couple days and it reads

439
00:17:59,740 --> 00:17:56,160
Alfred Rupert sheldrick is an English

440
00:18:02,390 --> 00:17:59,750
author lecture researcher and

441
00:18:05,240 --> 00:18:02,400
parapsychologist-- now the change that

442
00:18:06,590 --> 00:18:05,250
you sought to make was rather than

443
00:18:09,530 --> 00:18:06,600
leading with the fact that he's an

444
00:18:12,050 --> 00:18:09,540
author to lead with the fact that he's a

445
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:12,060
biologist right is in English biologist

446
00:18:19,070 --> 00:18:15,240
yes exactly so so and also to it I mean

447
00:18:21,800 --> 00:18:19,080
it's a me personally right I have no

448
00:18:24,500 --> 00:18:21,810
vested interest in promoting rubert

449
00:18:27,140 --> 00:18:24,510
Sheldrake's ideas or his hypothesis and

450
00:18:29,420 --> 00:18:27,150
I really don't know like I can't say

451
00:18:32,180 --> 00:18:29,430
scientifically if they're valid or

452
00:18:33,320 --> 00:18:32,190
invalid and that was never my arguments

453
00:18:35,660 --> 00:18:33,330
I was never arguing

454
00:18:37,580 --> 00:18:35,670
like pro his ideas my arguments were

455
00:18:39,380 --> 00:18:37,590
always just on the what's called the

456
00:18:41,090 --> 00:18:39,390
lead section right which is just

457
00:18:43,820 --> 00:18:41,100
describing the basic information about

458
00:18:46,910 --> 00:18:43,830
the man Rupert Sheldrake is a biologist

459
00:18:49,190 --> 00:18:46,920
author and lecturer so why I was so

460
00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:49,200
offended is and this is this is the

461
00:18:55,970 --> 00:18:52,530
metadata on Wikipedia is that these

462
00:18:58,100 --> 00:18:55,980
editors were basically abusing the

463
00:19:00,170 --> 00:18:58,110
metadata the first sentence of the

464
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:00,180
paragraph to immediately frame rubert

465
00:19:05,270 --> 00:19:02,570
Sheldrake in a light that one is just

466
00:19:07,340 --> 00:19:05,280
biographically not true but in a way

467
00:19:09,320 --> 00:19:07,350
where he has no credibility just after

468
00:19:11,450 --> 00:19:09,330
the first sentence so when i joined the

469
00:19:14,600 --> 00:19:11,460
page what i found offensive was Rupert

470
00:19:17,390 --> 00:19:14,610
Sheldrake is a former biologist right so

471
00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:17,400
I I just found that like offensive and I

472
00:19:20,390 --> 00:19:18,810
was like where is the source that he's a

473
00:19:22,670 --> 00:19:20,400
former biologist where is the evidence

474
00:19:24,860 --> 00:19:22,680
of this so all I was trying to do was

475
00:19:26,990 --> 00:19:24,870
really just change the lead section

476
00:19:28,760 --> 00:19:27,000
right I never was arguing for his

477
00:19:31,790 --> 00:19:28,770
theories how if they were valid or

478
00:19:33,890 --> 00:19:31,800
invalid so even just giving him his

479
00:19:35,690 --> 00:19:33,900
proper credentials academically right

480
00:19:38,150 --> 00:19:35,700
Cambridge University refers to him as a

481
00:19:40,400 --> 00:19:38,160
biologist there's a there's so many

482
00:19:42,950 --> 00:19:40,410
scientific publications that referred

483
00:19:46,580 --> 00:19:42,960
him as a biologist well it's absurd he

484
00:19:49,280 --> 00:19:46,590
has dozens and dozens of scholarly peer

485
00:19:51,020 --> 00:19:49,290
review papers in scientific journals I

486
00:19:52,940 --> 00:19:51,030
think he's published in Nature if I

487
00:19:55,070 --> 00:19:52,950
remember correctly he's published in

488
00:19:57,230 --> 00:19:55,080
some of the most respected biology

489
00:20:00,830 --> 00:19:57,240
journals and take line two from the

490
00:20:06,890 --> 00:20:00,840
wikipedia entry this is really it's

491
00:20:09,530 --> 00:20:06,900
unbelievable from 1967 to 1973 he was a

492
00:20:12,020 --> 00:20:09,540
biochemist and cell biologist at

493
00:20:14,180 --> 00:20:12,030
Cambridge University well what happened

494
00:20:16,520 --> 00:20:14,190
after that he stopped being a biochemist

495
00:20:18,590 --> 00:20:16,530
he stopped being a biologist it's just

496
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:18,600
absurd it's like something from a Monty

497
00:20:21,890 --> 00:20:20,400
Python movie that was in the hint

498
00:20:23,180 --> 00:20:21,900
inherently where I was kind of focusing

499
00:20:26,390 --> 00:20:23,190
my arguments just in kind of lead

500
00:20:27,860 --> 00:20:26,400
section i created a sandbox and the

501
00:20:29,030 --> 00:20:27,870
thing is is you know i was making this

502
00:20:30,950 --> 00:20:29,040
argument but so were a lot of other

503
00:20:33,320 --> 00:20:30,960
people like you know i personally do not

504
00:20:35,930 --> 00:20:33,330
identify myself as like a pro Sheldrake

505
00:20:37,370 --> 00:20:35,940
supporter in the sense there was you

506
00:20:39,920 --> 00:20:37,380
know Craig wheeler was involved in the

507
00:20:43,340 --> 00:20:39,930
page and he writes a blog about sigh and

508
00:20:45,620 --> 00:20:43,350
telepathy and things like this so he was

509
00:20:46,880 --> 00:20:45,630
kind of arguing from that perspective so

510
00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:46,890
but even the people

511
00:20:52,220 --> 00:20:49,530
who were you know arguing from that

512
00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:52,230
perspective no one had any problem with

513
00:20:56,060 --> 00:20:54,090
having any criticisms of Rupert

514
00:20:57,440 --> 00:20:56,070
Sheldrake on the page right so there's

515
00:20:59,420 --> 00:20:57,450
there's a number of scientists that I've

516
00:21:01,400 --> 00:20:59,430
said very critical things about him they

517
00:21:03,290 --> 00:21:01,410
refer to his work as pseudoscience and

518
00:21:05,300 --> 00:21:03,300
all these things no one was arguing

519
00:21:07,070 --> 00:21:05,310
against that we everyone wanted that on

520
00:21:08,780 --> 00:21:07,080
the page it's an encyclopedia it's

521
00:21:11,570 --> 00:21:08,790
notable it should be there well hold on

522
00:21:14,180 --> 00:21:11,580
hold on a minute I mean it maybe it's

523
00:21:16,250 --> 00:21:14,190
notable maybe it's not notable there's a

524
00:21:18,290 --> 00:21:16,260
lot of controversy about that I think

525
00:21:20,060 --> 00:21:18,300
one of the things that you bring to this

526
00:21:23,450 --> 00:21:20,070
discussion the perspective that you

527
00:21:25,700 --> 00:21:23,460
bring is as a media consultant and as

528
00:21:28,550 --> 00:21:25,710
someone as you explain your story who is

529
00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:28,560
neutral on the topic so i can get pretty

530
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:30,110
heated if we want to talk about

531
00:21:34,550 --> 00:21:32,610
pseudoscience but so i don't want to go

532
00:21:36,320 --> 00:21:34,560
there necessarily i want to stick to

533
00:21:40,700 --> 00:21:36,330
what you were just saying about the real

534
00:21:44,030 --> 00:21:40,710
story here is about wikipedia and about

535
00:21:47,360 --> 00:21:44,040
how it has been rigged how the game has

536
00:21:50,000 --> 00:21:47,370
been gained by these folks and how it's

537
00:21:52,670 --> 00:21:50,010
consistent it's not just about sheldrick

538
00:21:55,130 --> 00:21:52,680
I mean the broader question that we have

539
00:21:58,160 --> 00:21:55,140
to ask ourselves when we dig into it is

540
00:22:01,250 --> 00:21:58,170
what does this say about science because

541
00:22:03,200 --> 00:22:01,260
I think one of the on-going debates we

542
00:22:06,200 --> 00:22:03,210
have on this show and with

543
00:22:08,600 --> 00:22:06,210
forward-thinking scientists is we have

544
00:22:11,150 --> 00:22:08,610
this perception sometimes because the

545
00:22:13,850 --> 00:22:11,160
internet does have this long tail and it

546
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:13,860
does allow more voices and more variety

547
00:22:17,810 --> 00:22:15,930
of voices we have this sense I think

548
00:22:20,780 --> 00:22:17,820
sometimes that things are getting better

549
00:22:22,370 --> 00:22:20,790
that a paradigm change is coming that

550
00:22:24,680 --> 00:22:22,380
new I that were more open to new ideas

551
00:22:27,260 --> 00:22:24,690
and I think when we run into something

552
00:22:30,020 --> 00:22:27,270
like this we have to acknowledge that in

553
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:30,030
a lot of ways science is worse than it

554
00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:33,330
was that power through the internet has

555
00:22:38,510 --> 00:22:36,090
been consolidated in some respects into

556
00:22:42,500 --> 00:22:38,520
the hands of a few people like this who

557
00:22:45,170 --> 00:22:42,510
can kind of rig the game so let's talk

558
00:22:47,150 --> 00:22:45,180
about what this might mean for science

559
00:22:48,830 --> 00:22:47,160
or what the broader implications of this

560
00:22:50,780 --> 00:22:48,840
are I'm not sure how much it affects

561
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:50,790
science is how much it affects knowledge

562
00:22:56,030 --> 00:22:53,610
just to kind of jump in here I didn't

563
00:22:58,300 --> 00:22:56,040
say how does it affect science I say

564
00:23:01,690 --> 00:22:58,310
what does it say about science

565
00:23:05,020 --> 00:23:01,700
what does it say about our perception

566
00:23:08,700 --> 00:23:05,030
that we have that the internet is going

567
00:23:12,210 --> 00:23:08,710
to somehow save us liberate us from the

568
00:23:15,160 --> 00:23:12,220
narrowed perspective that science

569
00:23:17,470 --> 00:23:15,170
materialism sometimes gives sometimes

570
00:23:19,870 --> 00:23:17,480
gives us there's kind of rhetorical

571
00:23:23,470 --> 00:23:19,880
question it's to me it says that you

572
00:23:25,690 --> 00:23:23,480
know science isn't as well off as it

573
00:23:27,940 --> 00:23:25,700
seems and she'll drochs you know book

574
00:23:30,660 --> 00:23:27,950
science set free his latest book is

575
00:23:33,810 --> 00:23:30,670
really that it's an extension of that

576
00:23:37,030 --> 00:23:33,820
condemnation of science and Sciences

577
00:23:39,220 --> 00:23:37,040
inability to kind of get out of its own

578
00:23:41,620 --> 00:23:39,230
mess and pull itself up from its

579
00:23:44,110 --> 00:23:41,630
bootstraps I see what you mean now so I

580
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:44,120
actually agree with that III wouldn't me

581
00:23:47,530 --> 00:23:45,410
person I wouldn't call it science I

582
00:23:49,110 --> 00:23:47,540
would call it just philosophy though I

583
00:23:52,420 --> 00:23:49,120
guess there's this philosophy of

584
00:23:55,990 --> 00:23:52,430
scientific materialism this is referred

585
00:23:57,610 --> 00:23:56,000
to as scientism physicalism it is it

586
00:24:00,460 --> 00:23:57,620
draws from a lot of knowledge that

587
00:24:02,710 --> 00:24:00,470
science provides but it is a philosophy

588
00:24:06,130 --> 00:24:02,720
and I think what this does say is that

589
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:06,140
there is a bias of this philosophy and

590
00:24:11,830 --> 00:24:08,330
it I do believe it's entrenched in

591
00:24:14,130 --> 00:24:11,840
Wikipedia right there my own personal

592
00:24:17,080 --> 00:24:14,140
experience actually really kind of

593
00:24:18,550 --> 00:24:17,090
provided that to me right where you have

594
00:24:21,130 --> 00:24:18,560
this just really kind of rigid

595
00:24:24,010 --> 00:24:21,140
philosophical bias that take science

596
00:24:25,870 --> 00:24:24,020
kind of treats it like a fundamentalist

597
00:24:27,400 --> 00:24:25,880
religious person would treat their

598
00:24:29,740 --> 00:24:27,410
religion right how they would treat

599
00:24:32,290 --> 00:24:29,750
Christianity where it's just we're right

600
00:24:34,000 --> 00:24:32,300
we can break any rules that we want

601
00:24:36,220 --> 00:24:34,010
because we're right anyway it doesn't

602
00:24:38,740 --> 00:24:36,230
matter and anybody who disagrees with

603
00:24:40,360 --> 00:24:38,750
this not only they wrong as people but

604
00:24:43,870 --> 00:24:40,370
they're whatever they're ignorant

605
00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:43,880
they're stupid we can abuse them that is

606
00:24:47,920 --> 00:24:45,770
a pattern and I have seen that happen

607
00:24:50,170 --> 00:24:47,930
along on Wikipedia and in addition to

608
00:24:52,300 --> 00:24:50,180
that you know I was exposed on Wikipedia

609
00:24:54,480 --> 00:24:52,310
me personally right let me they added me

610
00:24:57,790 --> 00:24:54,490
as a person and now they have created

611
00:24:59,710 --> 00:24:57,800
this hit piece on me on rational wiki

612
00:25:02,650 --> 00:24:59,720
and I'm sure you're familiar with

613
00:25:05,020 --> 00:25:02,660
rational wiki which it's it's everything

614
00:25:07,120 --> 00:25:05,030
but rational right and basically you

615
00:25:09,190 --> 00:25:07,130
have there's probably isn't that many

616
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:09,200
editors involved in rational wiki but

617
00:25:13,169 --> 00:25:10,330
they're these really

618
00:25:15,990 --> 00:25:13,179
aggravated people who kind of adhere to

619
00:25:17,549 --> 00:25:16,000
this kind of specific worldview and they

620
00:25:19,830 --> 00:25:17,559
use it to basically abuse people and

621
00:25:21,750 --> 00:25:19,840
there's this very abusive libelous piece

622
00:25:24,360 --> 00:25:21,760
on me on rational wiki right now which

623
00:25:26,880 --> 00:25:24,370
it shows up really high in search it's

624
00:25:29,759 --> 00:25:26,890
harmful to be professionally and what it

625
00:25:32,310 --> 00:25:29,769
says to me is if this you know

626
00:25:34,380 --> 00:25:32,320
philosophy or however it's referred to

627
00:25:35,850 --> 00:25:34,390
but these people who are part of this I

628
00:25:38,279 --> 00:25:35,860
don't even know what to call it alex is

629
00:25:40,740 --> 00:25:38,289
it a skeptical movement are they are the

630
00:25:42,509 --> 00:25:40,750
atheists I have no idea but if they're

631
00:25:45,899 --> 00:25:42,519
simply promoting science which is based

632
00:25:48,060 --> 00:25:45,909
on empiricism logic rationality why do

633
00:25:50,100 --> 00:25:48,070
they need to do all these dirty tricks

634
00:25:52,860 --> 00:25:50,110
to get their point across why do they

635
00:25:54,990 --> 00:25:52,870
need to you know abuse people why do

636
00:25:57,840 --> 00:25:55,000
they need to defame people to make their

637
00:25:59,879 --> 00:25:57,850
point well I think that's really kind of

638
00:26:02,340 --> 00:25:59,889
the more interesting issues and I think

639
00:26:04,830 --> 00:26:02,350
we can kind of sit on the sidelines and

640
00:26:07,350 --> 00:26:04,840
co oh my gosh isn't this horrible and

641
00:26:10,379 --> 00:26:07,360
you know won't things ever get better

642
00:26:12,629 --> 00:26:10,389
and and these crazy skeptics then I

643
00:26:16,289 --> 00:26:12,639
always point out to people is the

644
00:26:18,810 --> 00:26:16,299
skeptics the dogmatic skeptics the

645
00:26:20,700 --> 00:26:18,820
fundamentalist atheists who these people

646
00:26:23,279 --> 00:26:20,710
represent are really the tip of the

647
00:26:24,690 --> 00:26:23,289
spear for scientism we always want to

648
00:26:26,700 --> 00:26:24,700
you know like you did and say well it's

649
00:26:29,009 --> 00:26:26,710
really not a problem with science is it

650
00:26:30,810 --> 00:26:29,019
it's a slot problem with scientific

651
00:26:33,509 --> 00:26:30,820
materialism it's a philosophical issue

652
00:26:35,970 --> 00:26:33,519
no forget it it's about science if we're

653
00:26:38,639 --> 00:26:35,980
going to talk in general terms science

654
00:26:40,350 --> 00:26:38,649
media has been completely co-opted by

655
00:26:41,639 --> 00:26:40,360
this point of view and the reason I'd

656
00:26:43,950 --> 00:26:41,649
come back and say it's the tip of the

657
00:26:46,620 --> 00:26:43,960
spear is you don't see scientists

658
00:26:49,110 --> 00:26:46,630
rushing to the aid of Rupert sheldrick

659
00:26:50,820 --> 00:26:49,120
just on principle saying hey this is a

660
00:26:53,310 --> 00:26:50,830
colleague of ours this guy's clearly

661
00:26:55,649 --> 00:26:53,320
about ologist he said Cambridge fellow

662
00:26:58,230 --> 00:26:55,659
you know he's all these things we need

663
00:27:01,019 --> 00:26:58,240
to defend this no they sit on their

664
00:27:02,639 --> 00:27:01,029
hands and silently cheer or some of them

665
00:27:05,549 --> 00:27:02,649
sit on their hands and hope that the

666
00:27:08,039 --> 00:27:05,559
arrow doesn't point to them next so it's

667
00:27:10,230 --> 00:27:08,049
really akin to what you were talking

668
00:27:12,299 --> 00:27:10,240
about with religious fundamentalism so

669
00:27:14,399 --> 00:27:12,309
you know back when they were bombing

670
00:27:16,580 --> 00:27:14,409
abortion clinics you know of course

671
00:27:19,830 --> 00:27:16,590
there was an outcry of stop the violence

672
00:27:21,990 --> 00:27:19,840
from other Christians but there wasn't

673
00:27:24,180 --> 00:27:22,000
too much of an outcry right it's if

674
00:27:25,860 --> 00:27:24,190
there's a lot of sympathy to four

675
00:27:28,289 --> 00:27:25,870
well we can certainly understand how

676
00:27:30,830 --> 00:27:28,299
upset people are by all those babies

677
00:27:34,759 --> 00:27:30,840
dying you know so these frontline

678
00:27:37,710 --> 00:27:34,769
soldiers these tip of the spear of a

679
00:27:40,590 --> 00:27:37,720
ideological debate I think we have to be

680
00:27:42,779 --> 00:27:40,600
careful when we kind of separate them

681
00:27:45,629 --> 00:27:42,789
and bifurcate and say well they don't

682
00:27:47,970 --> 00:27:45,639
really represent science yeah I think

683
00:27:52,369 --> 00:27:47,980
they do they do form a pretty good

684
00:27:55,919 --> 00:27:52,379
representation of the crazy scientific

685
00:27:57,930 --> 00:27:55,929
materialism that really grips science as

686
00:28:00,539 --> 00:27:57,940
we know it right now I don't see any

687
00:28:05,310 --> 00:28:00,549
relief from that I hope you're wrong

688
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:05,320
about that I I mean I don't know what to

689
00:28:08,879 --> 00:28:07,090
say I mean I I definitely see it as a

690
00:28:10,289 --> 00:28:08,889
problem especially going through this

691
00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:10,299
whole process I mean listen me

692
00:28:13,379 --> 00:28:12,070
personally I love science right I've

693
00:28:15,930 --> 00:28:13,389
loved science since I was a kid when I

694
00:28:17,820 --> 00:28:15,940
was in 3rd 4th grade I was devouring

695
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:17,830
books on astronomy right so there's this

696
00:28:22,409 --> 00:28:19,450
part of me that loves science as a

697
00:28:24,180 --> 00:28:22,419
process and as a way to kind of develop

698
00:28:25,350 --> 00:28:24,190
knowledge right so maybe when I hear you

699
00:28:27,810 --> 00:28:25,360
say that word science that's what I'm

700
00:28:30,629 --> 00:28:27,820
you know I'm assuming you mean what how

701
00:28:32,399 --> 00:28:30,639
I understand science I definitely see

702
00:28:35,519 --> 00:28:32,409
this as it as a huge problem though I

703
00:28:39,299 --> 00:28:35,529
mean there is this mindset personally I

704
00:28:41,730 --> 00:28:39,309
think it's groupthink right I don't know

705
00:28:43,710 --> 00:28:41,740
if you're familiar what groupthink is or

706
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:43,720
if your if your listeners are but

707
00:28:48,389 --> 00:28:45,490
groupthink is a term that's used in

708
00:28:50,129 --> 00:28:48,399
psychology and group thing can happen in

709
00:28:52,710 --> 00:28:50,139
any place where groups of people form

710
00:28:54,869 --> 00:28:52,720
right it's it's irrespective of what the

711
00:28:57,600 --> 00:28:54,879
the beliefs of that group are and how

712
00:28:59,850 --> 00:28:57,610
groupthink forms is people inside that

713
00:29:02,100 --> 00:28:59,860
group are afraid to address conflict

714
00:29:03,990 --> 00:29:02,110
inside that group and because they are

715
00:29:07,470 --> 00:29:04,000
afraid to address conflict inside that

716
00:29:10,680 --> 00:29:07,480
group they into form this kind of shared

717
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:10,690
language and the shared language really

718
00:29:15,299 --> 00:29:12,490
is about avoiding these conflicts within

719
00:29:17,519 --> 00:29:15,309
the group and from that from group think

720
00:29:19,139 --> 00:29:17,529
you'll get delusion you know you'll get

721
00:29:21,930 --> 00:29:19,149
course a lot of like a rationality

722
00:29:24,389 --> 00:29:21,940
that's personally what I see happening

723
00:29:27,029 --> 00:29:24,399
right I see that there's groupthink

724
00:29:29,970 --> 00:29:27,039
happening and because it is science it's

725
00:29:32,700 --> 00:29:29,980
it's potentially institutionalized

726
00:29:34,289 --> 00:29:32,710
groupthink right but you would we find

727
00:29:37,650 --> 00:29:34,299
this in government or we would find this

728
00:29:39,360 --> 00:29:37,660
in huge corporations right i I'm in my

729
00:29:41,310 --> 00:29:39,370
industry right I'm in the median

730
00:29:43,050 --> 00:29:41,320
technology space and I've have had a

731
00:29:45,330 --> 00:29:43,060
horrible groupthink experiences with

732
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:45,340
companies and startups that's what I

733
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:48,130
personally think this is i think it's i

734
00:29:52,530 --> 00:29:50,290
don't think it's like a conspiracy in

735
00:29:54,780 --> 00:29:52,540
the sense that people are consciously

736
00:29:58,050 --> 00:29:54,790
putting together strategies of how to do

737
00:29:59,610 --> 00:29:58,060
this i think it is a if it is a

738
00:30:02,070 --> 00:29:59,620
conspiracy it would be like a completely

739
00:30:04,830 --> 00:30:02,080
unconscious conspiracy right and to

740
00:30:08,370 --> 00:30:04,840
avoid conflict within the group and when

741
00:30:09,930 --> 00:30:08,380
you begin to engage in an argument with

742
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:09,940
people who are have this kind of

743
00:30:14,750 --> 00:30:12,970
groupthink process happening when you

744
00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:14,760
engage in an argument and you begin to

745
00:30:18,990 --> 00:30:16,900
conflict with their ideas that they're

746
00:30:20,940 --> 00:30:19,000
avoiding inside of their group you will

747
00:30:22,170 --> 00:30:20,950
get a very kind of violent reaction

748
00:30:24,030 --> 00:30:22,180
because they're not just defending

749
00:30:26,370 --> 00:30:24,040
themselves or their own personal points

750
00:30:27,810 --> 00:30:26,380
of view they're actually defending the

751
00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:27,820
paradigm of the group right there

752
00:30:32,370 --> 00:30:30,850
protecting the paradigm of the group so

753
00:30:34,590 --> 00:30:32,380
that is that's personally how I

754
00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:34,600
interpret it what is what is really

755
00:30:38,430 --> 00:30:36,550
interesting and this is you know

756
00:30:41,640 --> 00:30:38,440
personally and you and I spoke once

757
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:41,650
before personally I'm an agnostic right

758
00:30:45,810 --> 00:30:44,290
so I don't really have at least I'd oh I

759
00:30:48,930 --> 00:30:45,820
don't think I do I don't really have an

760
00:30:51,180 --> 00:30:48,940
ID I an idea an ideology on one side or

761
00:30:52,260 --> 00:30:51,190
the other and I come from the Robert I

762
00:30:54,810 --> 00:30:52,270
don't know if you know who Robert Anton

763
00:30:56,220 --> 00:30:54,820
Wilson was but he was an author and so I

764
00:30:58,860 --> 00:30:56,230
kind of come from the Robert Anton

765
00:31:01,020 --> 00:30:58,870
Wilson School which is I'm not just

766
00:31:03,660 --> 00:31:01,030
agnostic about religion I'm agnostic

767
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:03,670
about everything and what's really

768
00:31:07,830 --> 00:31:04,960
interesting when you take an agnostic

769
00:31:10,020 --> 00:31:07,840
approach and you're arguing or you

770
00:31:12,510 --> 00:31:10,030
engage in a debate with someone who is

771
00:31:14,400 --> 00:31:12,520
on one extreme or the other they really

772
00:31:16,080 --> 00:31:14,410
don't know what to make of you because

773
00:31:19,110 --> 00:31:16,090
you're not you're not really you're not

774
00:31:20,790 --> 00:31:19,120
really taking aside and when you have

775
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:20,800
this kind of agnostic approach where

776
00:31:24,990 --> 00:31:22,090
you're just coming from this place of

777
00:31:27,630 --> 00:31:25,000
you know hey I'm kind of in the middle

778
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:27,640
it's kind of a known I don't really have

779
00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:29,110
the answers are not arguing for the

780
00:31:36,900 --> 00:31:32,890
answers it's really easy to expose where

781
00:31:39,510 --> 00:31:36,910
people who are really I don't know

782
00:31:43,020 --> 00:31:39,520
really what's the word I'm looking for

783
00:31:44,550 --> 00:31:43,030
certain yeah they're really certain it's

784
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:44,560
really easy to expose their

785
00:31:48,450 --> 00:31:47,290
contradictions well I'm not I might edit

786
00:31:49,860 --> 00:31:48,460
some this out because I don't want to

787
00:31:51,630 --> 00:31:49,870
get off on this whole side track but

788
00:31:54,060 --> 00:31:51,640
yeah I don't think there's any such

789
00:31:55,680 --> 00:31:54,070
is an agnostic we all lay our head down

790
00:31:57,300 --> 00:31:55,690
on the pillow at night and wake up at

791
00:32:00,270 --> 00:31:57,310
two o'clock in the morning and have

792
00:32:02,070 --> 00:32:00,280
those fundamental X essential questions

793
00:32:04,710 --> 00:32:02,080
and we answer them one way or another

794
00:32:08,550 --> 00:32:04,720
and the way we answer them is who we are

795
00:32:10,620 --> 00:32:08,560
so I don't believe in agnosticism I just

796
00:32:12,870 --> 00:32:10,630
don't think it exists we live our life

797
00:32:15,390 --> 00:32:12,880
the way we live our life is the answer

798
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:15,400
for what we believe and again this is

799
00:32:20,490 --> 00:32:17,530
kind of out of the context of this show

800
00:32:22,920 --> 00:32:20,500
but for me I'm not about belief i'm just

801
00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:22,930
about following the evidence following

802
00:32:29,750 --> 00:32:26,410
the data and i don't know what the real

803
00:32:32,790 --> 00:32:29,760
answer is i know that the paradigm of

804
00:32:35,670 --> 00:32:32,800
scientific materialism the paradigm of

805
00:32:37,920 --> 00:32:35,680
you are just a biological robot and the

806
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:37,930
consciousness is an illusion I know

807
00:32:44,760 --> 00:32:40,930
that's been falsified the data that we

808
00:32:47,400 --> 00:32:44,770
have overwhelmingly suggest that that's

809
00:32:49,050 --> 00:32:47,410
the case so you know what that means in

810
00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:49,060
terms of what somebody wants a label

811
00:32:53,070 --> 00:32:50,470
themselves or something like that I

812
00:32:55,740 --> 00:32:53,080
don't know but let me get off of that

813
00:32:57,620 --> 00:32:55,750
aside and maybe respond to this and this

814
00:33:00,510 --> 00:32:57,630
where I'd like to pick it up I'd say so

815
00:33:03,570 --> 00:33:00,520
Rome maybe it is a group think thing and

816
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:03,580
I'm open to that but I also have a sense

817
00:33:08,610 --> 00:33:06,490
that it's really about culture and it's

818
00:33:10,200 --> 00:33:08,620
about a culture war it's really

819
00:33:12,860 --> 00:33:10,210
interesting you know because when you

820
00:33:15,630 --> 00:33:12,870
really try and pin down these groups

821
00:33:18,330 --> 00:33:15,640
it's fascinating because what are they

822
00:33:20,580 --> 00:33:18,340
really about their about defending the

823
00:33:22,800 --> 00:33:20,590
status quo they're about maintaining

824
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:22,810
things the way they are and it's a weird

825
00:33:28,070 --> 00:33:25,570
position to be in and they're also about

826
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:28,080
maintaining from what I can tell this

827
00:33:34,460 --> 00:33:31,810
strange balance between the idiocy of

828
00:33:36,930 --> 00:33:34,470
religion and the craziness of

829
00:33:39,780 --> 00:33:36,940
materialistic science I mean they just

830
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:39,790
don't want things to change in this

831
00:33:44,130 --> 00:33:41,410
balance and that's why you know like you

832
00:33:47,460 --> 00:33:44,140
mentioned cold fusion a minute ago why

833
00:33:50,570 --> 00:33:47,470
the heck would any won't be against cold

834
00:33:53,310 --> 00:33:50,580
fusion why would why would a skeptic

835
00:33:55,830 --> 00:33:53,320
quote-unquote skeptic have even an

836
00:33:58,170 --> 00:33:55,840
opinion on that I mean it doesn't seem

837
00:34:00,780 --> 00:33:58,180
to be a culture war issue but it is a

838
00:34:02,130 --> 00:34:00,790
culture war issue if we look at it

839
00:34:05,370 --> 00:34:02,140
through this lens that i'm talking about

840
00:34:08,070 --> 00:34:05,380
of defending the status quo defending

841
00:34:09,780 --> 00:34:08,080
things as they currently exist and if we

842
00:34:12,510 --> 00:34:09,790
look at it and we come way and we say

843
00:34:15,540 --> 00:34:12,520
maybe that is it then I think you have

844
00:34:17,820 --> 00:34:15,550
to be more open to the conspiratorial

845
00:34:20,580 --> 00:34:17,830
aspect of it and I don't want to go too

846
00:34:23,190 --> 00:34:20,590
far in that but i will say that i don't

847
00:34:26,040 --> 00:34:23,200
think conspiracies work the way that

848
00:34:29,760 --> 00:34:26,050
people generally think they work it's

849
00:34:32,550 --> 00:34:29,770
not like a group of guys in a back smoky

850
00:34:35,070 --> 00:34:32,560
cigar filled room making decisions about

851
00:34:37,440 --> 00:34:35,080
how to rule the world it's just about

852
00:34:39,629 --> 00:34:37,450
sitting back and seeing how the game is

853
00:34:42,720 --> 00:34:39,639
played in given a little wink and a nod

854
00:34:45,030 --> 00:34:42,730
here and a little nudge they're cutting

855
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:45,040
the legs out of this guy over here and

856
00:34:49,530 --> 00:34:47,290
promoting this guy a little bit more

857
00:34:51,629 --> 00:34:49,540
over here and you basically just let the

858
00:34:53,610 --> 00:34:51,639
system run its course and just make

859
00:34:55,350 --> 00:34:53,620
these little tweaks and you can get the

860
00:34:57,840 --> 00:34:55,360
outcome that you want that's what I

861
00:34:59,400 --> 00:34:57,850
think is going on well it listen that in

862
00:35:01,140 --> 00:34:59,410
that in that light there was definitely

863
00:35:03,960 --> 00:35:01,150
conspiracy to get me banned off of

864
00:35:05,910 --> 00:35:03,970
Wikipedia there's you know there's no

865
00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:05,920
question about that I actually uh I have

866
00:35:11,010 --> 00:35:07,330
there's actually a lot of evidence

867
00:35:13,950 --> 00:35:11,020
compiled for for that and to your other

868
00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:13,960
point you know I was really putting

869
00:35:18,650 --> 00:35:15,370
forward a lot of very kind of strong

870
00:35:21,300 --> 00:35:18,660
guard arguments on Rupert's page and

871
00:35:23,250 --> 00:35:21,310
these arguments I think it was the first

872
00:35:24,900 --> 00:35:23,260
time that the editors were really kind

873
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:24,910
of confronted with really kind of strong

874
00:35:29,850 --> 00:35:27,970
arguments and although they banned me

875
00:35:32,370 --> 00:35:29,860
right I was I was banned off Wikipedia

876
00:35:34,080 --> 00:35:32,380
October 17th my arguments are still

877
00:35:36,210 --> 00:35:34,090
continuing right there's there's a

878
00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:36,220
number of editors who have come in and

879
00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:38,080
have now picked up these arguments and

880
00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:40,450
his page has gotten a lot better because

881
00:35:44,730 --> 00:35:43,090
of it right not to how I would think it

882
00:35:46,410 --> 00:35:44,740
should be personally but there has been

883
00:35:49,740 --> 00:35:46,420
a lot of very kind of positive changes

884
00:35:51,510 --> 00:35:49,750
and I and then to your point I think

885
00:35:52,740 --> 00:35:51,520
we're kind of using conspiracy and

886
00:35:55,260 --> 00:35:52,750
groupthink probably as interchangeable

887
00:35:58,980 --> 00:35:55,270
words right I definitely think that in

888
00:36:00,720 --> 00:35:58,990
any kind of situation where any group

889
00:36:02,550 --> 00:36:00,730
kind of feels threatened they're going

890
00:36:04,770 --> 00:36:02,560
to try to advance their ideas or their

891
00:36:09,810 --> 00:36:04,780
agenda their protocols however they can

892
00:36:12,090 --> 00:36:09,820
and most people will lie ban someone

893
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:12,100
sensor someone maybe even kill someone

894
00:36:18,300 --> 00:36:14,650
to forward any idea that they believe is

895
00:36:19,559 --> 00:36:18,310
true and when you attack an idea that

896
00:36:21,959 --> 00:36:19,569
someone believes it's true

897
00:36:23,939 --> 00:36:21,969
they're really invested in that idea I

898
00:36:25,799 --> 00:36:23,949
think what's going on in their minds is

899
00:36:28,769 --> 00:36:25,809
it's as if you are physically attacking

900
00:36:31,199 --> 00:36:28,779
them and if your if their idea is no

901
00:36:34,229 --> 00:36:31,209
longer true it means that they're dead

902
00:36:37,199 --> 00:36:34,239
almost right so it people have this

903
00:36:38,789 --> 00:36:37,209
really kind of protective sense of what

904
00:36:41,089 --> 00:36:38,799
they believe to be true and i agree

905
00:36:43,259 --> 00:36:41,099
people will plot and strategize

906
00:36:45,029 --> 00:36:43,269
defending their ideas as if they were

907
00:36:47,699 --> 00:36:45,039
defending their own lives so just like

908
00:36:50,519 --> 00:36:47,709
you know in world war two you had the

909
00:36:52,170 --> 00:36:50,529
Nazis and the Americans they were they

910
00:36:54,059 --> 00:36:52,180
were coming up with all kinds of battle

911
00:36:56,729 --> 00:36:54,069
plans and strategies to protect both of

912
00:36:58,859 --> 00:36:56,739
their sides in the conflict that would

913
00:37:01,349 --> 00:36:58,869
be a similar analogy in this case it's

914
00:37:02,640 --> 00:37:01,359
just a war of ideas and people will

915
00:37:04,859 --> 00:37:02,650
definitely do whatever they can to

916
00:37:06,779 --> 00:37:04,869
protect those ideas what's that's what I

917
00:37:08,099 --> 00:37:06,789
think was really awesome about what

918
00:37:10,589 --> 00:37:08,109
happened to be on Wikipedia is because

919
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:10,599
the case is so clear right I mean I

920
00:37:15,089 --> 00:37:11,890
because everything is stored on

921
00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:15,099
Wikipedia I have evidence I have actual

922
00:37:19,559 --> 00:37:17,410
physical evidence of the discussions

923
00:37:22,199 --> 00:37:19,569
they were having about me there were

924
00:37:25,259 --> 00:37:22,209
that I have I have links to where they

925
00:37:26,789 --> 00:37:25,269
are literally talking about getting me

926
00:37:29,609 --> 00:37:26,799
band off the page and they're all

927
00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:29,619
gathering one section and they're using

928
00:37:34,199 --> 00:37:31,690
these these links that are cutting you

929
00:37:35,989 --> 00:37:34,209
know they go back to 2004 and they're

930
00:37:39,120 --> 00:37:35,999
using these links as evidence of me

931
00:37:42,269 --> 00:37:39,130
trolling on Wikipedia in 2013 which is

932
00:37:45,439 --> 00:37:42,279
really it's absurd right every nine

933
00:37:47,880 --> 00:37:45,449
years you show up to troll well what is

934
00:37:49,229 --> 00:37:47,890
potentially do for you wrong because

935
00:37:52,019 --> 00:37:49,239
it's interesting the first time we

936
00:37:54,870 --> 00:37:52,029
talked you were telling me about some of

937
00:37:56,099 --> 00:37:54,880
these ideas you had coincidentally

938
00:37:58,469 --> 00:37:56,109
really because there they weren't

939
00:38:01,680 --> 00:37:58,479
connected at the time to this but ideas

940
00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:01,690
that you have for engineering other kind

941
00:38:08,069 --> 00:38:04,930
of social interaction tools and products

942
00:38:10,170 --> 00:38:08,079
that transcend some of these or help us

943
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:10,180
transcend some of these problems tell us

944
00:38:13,829 --> 00:38:11,650
a little bit about that and might this

945
00:38:15,989 --> 00:38:13,839
be a blessing in disguise Flynn and an

946
00:38:17,969 --> 00:38:15,999
impetus for you to even drive some of

947
00:38:19,650 --> 00:38:17,979
that stuff further absolutely this is I

948
00:38:21,749 --> 00:38:19,660
mean that I am so passionate about this

949
00:38:24,329 --> 00:38:21,759
subject I have actually been developing

950
00:38:25,559 --> 00:38:24,339
a platform for about 10 years now it's

951
00:38:27,390 --> 00:38:25,569
actually in production right now the

952
00:38:30,269 --> 00:38:27,400
first iteration hopefully going to be

953
00:38:32,010 --> 00:38:30,279
ready in a couple weeks in in programmer

954
00:38:34,710 --> 00:38:32,020
time that could be two months

955
00:38:37,560 --> 00:38:34,720
but I've developed a collective editing

956
00:38:40,620 --> 00:38:37,570
platform that can sort massive

957
00:38:43,950 --> 00:38:40,630
large-scale discussions by rational

958
00:38:46,770 --> 00:38:43,960
consensus personal commentary and open

959
00:38:49,260 --> 00:38:46,780
questions and how it sorts of

960
00:38:50,450 --> 00:38:49,270
discussions will allow the editors or

961
00:38:54,120 --> 00:38:50,460
the participants in those discussions

962
00:38:55,830 --> 00:38:54,130
various editing powers so this is a bit

963
00:38:59,010 --> 00:38:55,840
this is I am so passionate about this

964
00:39:02,400 --> 00:38:59,020
this is why I was so interested in going

965
00:39:04,940 --> 00:39:02,410
on Rupert's page right I actually wanted

966
00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:04,950
to see how this process gets played out

967
00:39:10,500 --> 00:39:07,690
when you have a very kind of conflicting

968
00:39:13,080 --> 00:39:10,510
ideological based article how it kind of

969
00:39:15,540 --> 00:39:13,090
works itself out on Wikipedia I believe

970
00:39:17,670 --> 00:39:15,550
that collective editing platforms like

971
00:39:20,700 --> 00:39:17,680
Wikipedia I look at wikipedia the way is

972
00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:20,710
almost like a precursor I think it's the

973
00:39:26,370 --> 00:39:22,330
future i think it's i think collective

974
00:39:27,780 --> 00:39:26,380
editing platforms are going to evolve to

975
00:39:29,210 --> 00:39:27,790
where governments will be using

976
00:39:32,490 --> 00:39:29,220
collective editing platforms

977
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:32,500
corporations people businesses because

978
00:39:37,140 --> 00:39:34,570
it does enable collective intelligence

979
00:39:40,140 --> 00:39:37,150
itself does enable the most kind of

980
00:39:42,090 --> 00:39:40,150
refined the most honest the most

981
00:39:44,760 --> 00:39:42,100
rational idea to kind of form from a

982
00:39:46,860 --> 00:39:44,770
collective but why would we want that if

983
00:39:49,590 --> 00:39:46,870
we're in government or if we're in an

984
00:39:52,830 --> 00:39:49,600
institution that exerts a certain power

985
00:39:55,980 --> 00:39:52,840
control over an issue or topic why would

986
00:39:57,540 --> 00:39:55,990
we want that wolfforth for that very

987
00:40:00,030 --> 00:39:57,550
reason of what you just said well

988
00:40:01,650 --> 00:40:00,040
collect a collective editing platform by

989
00:40:04,260 --> 00:40:01,660
its very nature is it's an open process

990
00:40:06,570 --> 00:40:04,270
so it has the kind of like the spirit of

991
00:40:08,310 --> 00:40:06,580
democracy but it doesn't have the flaws

992
00:40:13,260 --> 00:40:08,320
it doesn't have the mathematical flaws

993
00:40:16,530 --> 00:40:13,270
of voting well I'd certainly love and

994
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:16,540
admire your idealism and I can only hope

995
00:40:24,210 --> 00:40:20,770
that you succeed in that effort but I'm

996
00:40:28,170 --> 00:40:24,220
skeptical well this I'm skeptical I'm

997
00:40:31,950 --> 00:40:28,180
skeptical too I'm I that's also to why

998
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:31,960
this is so perplexing because I think it

999
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:33,130
likely you two said I'm skeptical

1000
00:40:38,010 --> 00:40:35,310
skepticism is a very healthy attitude

1001
00:40:40,380 --> 00:40:38,020
right well I'll certainly be cheering

1002
00:40:42,540 --> 00:40:40,390
you on at the very least Rome bureau

1003
00:40:44,760 --> 00:40:42,550
thank you so much for joining me and

1004
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:44,770
best of luck with that work

1005
00:40:48,780 --> 00:40:46,690
oh thank you so much else I really

1006
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:48,790
appreciate you having me come on and

1007
00:40:52,200 --> 00:40:50,410
letting me tell my side of the story and

1008
00:40:54,690 --> 00:40:52,210
if I could just finish this with one

1009
00:40:57,030 --> 00:40:54,700
thing the reason why I appreciate this

1010
00:40:58,920 --> 00:40:57,040
so much as you know they are personally

1011
00:41:02,580 --> 00:40:58,930
attacking me right now is Roma Haru on

1012
00:41:05,010 --> 00:41:02,590
the internet and it has been very a very

1013
00:41:06,960 --> 00:41:05,020
emotional experience for me having to go

1014
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:06,970
through cyber bullying and Wikipedia and

1015
00:41:11,040 --> 00:41:09,490
I just want to end with what is

1016
00:41:13,770 --> 00:41:11,050
happening Olga pedia without a question

1017
00:41:15,480 --> 00:41:13,780
is cyber bullying cyberbullying there is

1018
00:41:18,000 --> 00:41:15,490
there are laws against cyberbullying and

1019
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:18,010
I believe that has to stop so I really

1020
00:41:21,780 --> 00:41:19,450
thank you for letting me tell my side of

1021
00:41:24,120 --> 00:41:21,790
the story well I thank you for you know

1022
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:24,130
sticking your neck out and persisting

1023
00:41:29,340 --> 00:41:26,050
and i will tell folks that the

1024
00:41:32,450 --> 00:41:29,350
genuineness that you're conveying i can

1025
00:41:35,790 --> 00:41:32,460
vouch for because before this really

1026
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:35,800
spun out of control you and I talked and

1027
00:41:43,770 --> 00:41:39,210
you were coming at this from purely a

1028
00:41:46,980 --> 00:41:43,780
genuine need to to fix a problem that

1029
00:41:48,750 --> 00:41:46,990
you saw is a fair-minded person and you

1030
00:41:50,760 --> 00:41:48,760
really got sucked into this vortex

1031
00:41:52,710 --> 00:41:50,770
without without being someone who is

1032
00:41:55,950 --> 00:41:52,720
going into it trying to pick a fight and

1033
00:41:58,530 --> 00:41:55,960
I i also have to admire your persistence

1034
00:42:01,200 --> 00:41:58,540
because you didn't back down you know

1035
00:42:04,230 --> 00:42:01,210
and we can't really back down from

1036
00:42:06,930 --> 00:42:04,240
bullies it just doesn't work and in this

1037
00:42:08,730 --> 00:42:06,940
case i don't know and i don't think you

1038
00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:08,740
know what you're going to have to go

1039
00:42:13,920 --> 00:42:11,140
through to get to the other side but i

1040
00:42:15,690 --> 00:42:13,930
do think you're going to have to get to

1041
00:42:18,030 --> 00:42:15,700
the other side there's no way to back

1042
00:42:19,590 --> 00:42:18,040
out now no exactly there's no way to

1043
00:42:21,270 --> 00:42:19,600
back out now and also if you wouldn't

1044
00:42:23,130 --> 00:42:21,280
mind to chi Chi just give you a little

1045
00:42:26,250 --> 00:42:23,140
update on what's happening two of ours

1046
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:26,260
so you know there's been an i am going

1047
00:42:32,070 --> 00:42:29,170
to be putting my case and everything up

1048
00:42:34,530 --> 00:42:32,080
online it should be ready hopefully in a

1049
00:42:36,600 --> 00:42:34,540
couple of days if i can leave the web

1050
00:42:39,030 --> 00:42:36,610
address would you mind sure no go ahead

1051
00:42:41,160 --> 00:42:39,040
and I'll also link up to it in the show

1052
00:42:44,220 --> 00:42:41,170
notes Roman and will of course point

1053
00:42:45,660 --> 00:42:44,230
people to that website and the links to

1054
00:42:47,580 --> 00:42:45,670
the other relevant links that we've

1055
00:42:50,310 --> 00:42:47,590
talked about in this show and I do hope

1056
00:42:52,380 --> 00:42:50,320
people get involved and follow this okay

1057
00:42:57,300 --> 00:42:52,390
so thanks again room alright doc thank

1058
00:42:59,160 --> 00:42:57,310
you so much thanks again to Rome pajaro

1059
00:43:01,710 --> 00:42:59,170
for joining me today on skeptic oh I

1060
00:43:03,450 --> 00:43:01,720
have a couple of questions or T up for

1061
00:43:06,930 --> 00:43:03,460
this interview but before I get there

1062
00:43:11,250 --> 00:43:06,940
let me update you on Rome's web page

1063
00:43:13,440 --> 00:43:11,260
it's at Wikipedia we have a problem calm

1064
00:43:15,720 --> 00:43:13,450
its pretty long URL but you'll get there

1065
00:43:18,240 --> 00:43:15,730
if you google it and I'll also of course

1066
00:43:20,070 --> 00:43:18,250
have a link in the show notes on his

1067
00:43:22,200 --> 00:43:20,080
website he really goes into a lot of

1068
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:22,210
depth provides a lot of background as

1069
00:43:26,310 --> 00:43:24,010
you just heard in this interview he's a

1070
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:26,320
level-headed guy he's pretty balanced in

1071
00:43:30,780 --> 00:43:28,570
his approach so it really does provide a

1072
00:43:32,910 --> 00:43:30,790
good case study for really looking at

1073
00:43:34,950 --> 00:43:32,920
Wikipedia so here are a couple of

1074
00:43:37,130 --> 00:43:34,960
questions that are kicking around for me

1075
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:37,140
number one what does this say about

1076
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:40,090
science and I know I keep saying science

1077
00:43:43,500 --> 00:43:41,650
and people go well it's not really

1078
00:43:45,630 --> 00:43:43,510
science science means this or science

1079
00:43:48,330 --> 00:43:45,640
means that but I tend to disagree i

1080
00:43:51,000 --> 00:43:48,340
think this situation really speaks to

1081
00:43:54,270 --> 00:43:51,010
the larger problem with the way science

1082
00:43:57,240 --> 00:43:54,280
is applied and i think as i said in the

1083
00:43:59,280 --> 00:43:57,250
show the lack of support for sheldrick

1084
00:44:01,410 --> 00:43:59,290
in a situation where the scientist

1085
00:44:05,520 --> 00:44:01,420
should obviously be supported by his

1086
00:44:07,830 --> 00:44:05,530
peers speaks loudly and clearly that

1087
00:44:11,100 --> 00:44:07,840
this is a problem with science in

1088
00:44:13,890 --> 00:44:11,110
general but maybe you disagree i'd like

1089
00:44:17,430 --> 00:44:13,900
to hear your opinion and the second

1090
00:44:19,950 --> 00:44:17,440
question is this whole process this

1091
00:44:23,670 --> 00:44:19,960
process of wikipedia we have a problem

1092
00:44:27,240 --> 00:44:23,680
this process of exposing this is grossly

1093
00:44:30,480 --> 00:44:27,250
unfair bias at wikipedia is it as it was

1094
00:44:33,360 --> 00:44:30,490
in the case a ted censorship of Rupert

1095
00:44:36,480 --> 00:44:33,370
sheldrick is it really a blessing in

1096
00:44:39,810 --> 00:44:36,490
disguise so those are a couple of

1097
00:44:42,060 --> 00:44:39,820
questions quasi questions but at least

1098
00:44:44,300 --> 00:44:42,070
starting points for a conversation of

1099
00:44:47,010 --> 00:44:44,310
course the place to pick up that

1100
00:44:51,420 --> 00:44:47,020
conversation thread and take it forward

1101
00:44:54,360 --> 00:44:51,430
is at the skeptical website at ske pti k

1102
00:44:57,000 --> 00:44:54,370
oh don't forget to spell skeptic Oh with

1103
00:44:59,790 --> 00:44:57,010
a KO at the end and at the website

1104
00:45:02,100 --> 00:44:59,800
you'll find a link to our forum where

1105
00:45:03,660 --> 00:45:02,110
the conversation will continue you can

1106
00:45:06,180 --> 00:45:03,670
also leave a comment right there on the

1107
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:06,190
website or jump on over to Facebook and

1108
00:45:08,329 --> 00:45:07,810
leave me a note there or send me an

1109
00:45:10,849 --> 00:45:08,339
email

1110
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:10,859
while you're at the skeptical website be

1111
00:45:15,190 --> 00:45:12,930
sure to check out all of our previous

1112
00:45:18,410 --> 00:45:15,200
shows over 200 of them and growing and

1113
00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:18,420
be sure to subscribe through itunes all

1114
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:20,729
that stuff is free as are the

1115
00:45:25,789 --> 00:45:23,130
transcripts as is everything else on the

1116
00:45:27,799 --> 00:45:25,799
site so please do check it out and share

1117
00:45:29,359 --> 00:45:27,809
it as much as you feel appropriate I

1118
00:45:31,729 --> 00:45:29,369
have a number of interesting shows

1119
00:45:34,579 --> 00:45:31,739
coming up the next one is going to be a

1120
00:45:36,589 --> 00:45:34,589
real well I gosh i don't i'm not sure

1121
00:45:40,700 --> 00:45:36,599
what adjective to use it's just going to

1122
00:45:42,680 --> 00:45:40,710
be a real real interesting shell but i

1123
00:45:44,299 --> 00:45:42,690
don't want to tip my hand too much on